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Traveller-digest      Friday, November 5 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 1315<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
Re: Middle Eastern Cyberpunk <BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
Re: Border Guards<BR>
RE: Nonhuman languages<BR>
Re: Nonhuman languages<BR>
Re: Joseph Dietrich's Imperium<BR>
RE: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
IBIS<BR>
Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
Re: Glitches after maintenance<BR>
Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
Re: Border Guards<BR>
Re: Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space<BR>
Whose Imperium??? (was Re: Joseph Dietrich's Imperium)<BR>
Re: Border Guards<BR>
re: Justice and Civil vs Criminal (OT-ish and Longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:04:19 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
<BR>
>It's not clear to me, however, that this is a good model of how nuclear<BR>
>dampers work in Traveller. Traveller nuclear dampers are point-effect, not<BR>
>area-effect, weapons that have to be targetted on each individual missile.<BR>
<BR>
I was always under the impression they were field-effect screens, at least<BR>
until TNE. MegaTraveller (which I cut my teeth on) seemed to treat them as<BR>
such -- no ND turrets, just screen packages.<BR>
<BR>
>You forgot long term access space for the power plant, I think: 304 spaces<BR>
>+ 1196 = 1,500. Did you also figure using long tons (2,240 lbs) rather than<BR>
>short tons (2,000 lbs)? That might account for the apparent weight difference.<BR>
<BR>
Short tons are what I used. Is this correct or incorrect? Question: Why do<BR>
spinal mounts use cf/50 for volume, when they would seem to be completely<BR>
enclosed in the hull (after all, the ship is built around it) and thus<BR>
subject to the cf/20 requirement?<BR>
<BR>
>The surface area of turrets and bays is calculated for just that portion<BR>
>which is outside the hull proper.<BR>
<BR>
Except that a turret is 3 spaces, right? Plus 1 in the hull for crewstation<BR>
and turning mechanism? The surface area of 800 would seem to suggest that<BR>
the turret is armored in it's entirety, as if it were completely<BR>
free-standing cube seperate from the hull (1,500 cf = 800 sf surface area,<BR>
according to GV). The 50-space bays are the same.<BR>
<BR>
>My plan is to reinstate the crew requirement from HG: 1 crewman per 100<BR>
>dtons of weapons. These are mostly technicians.<BR>
<BR>
I ended up doing this for the Type T NPAWS I designed -- 30 crew stations.<BR>
I actually came pretty close to the canonical size 3,001 spaces, with a<BR>
damage of 6d x 16,700. I'll post the cruiser once I get it finished tonight<BR>
or this weekend.<BR>
<BR>
Another question: What are good ballpark figures for warship armor? The<BR>
Type T spinal mount is the largest NPAWs available to the Imperium<BR>
historically, and as I have it figured its maximum possible damage is<BR>
601,200 (and averaging around 350,700). The CA-15 has an armor value of 80<BR>
(1080 cm hard steel) in MT, which is roughly DR 29,760. The Type T's going<BR>
to go right through that, but it'll still take several hits to kill the<BR>
ship (it's got lots of hitpoints). OTOH, according to FSotSI, a BB-15, with<BR>
an armor value of 120 is going to have a DR of somthing like 6,000,000,<BR>
which seems unreasonable by an order of magnitude, at least.<BR>
<BR>
Whaaa! I want that G:Starships book to come out *now*. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:04:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Cyberpunk <BR>
<BR>
> Keven Pittsinger wrote:<BR>
> >>>>>>>>><BR>
> > "Hardwired" was the Cyberpunk sourcebook for the book of the same<BR>
> > name - a cyberpunk universe with much simpler computers, and much<BR>
> > more complex drugs.<BR>
> <BR>
> 'Hardwired' was *also* a story by Walter Jon Williams, one of the better <BR>
> cyberpunk novels, IMNSFBHO.<BR>
> >>>>>>>>><BR>
> Thanks Kevin, that was the book R Talsorian Games' "Hardwired"<BR>
> sourcebook is based on - I wasn't as clear as I should have been,<BR>
> and the author's name had escaped me.<BR>
<BR>
NP, dood.<BR>
<BR>
Williams *also* came up with a couple other really cool books, 'Voice of the Whirlwind' (I *THINK* that's the name of it) and 'Angel Station'.  VotW was cyberpunk with star travel, though they didn't get into that too much.  The hero was an ex-grunt from a corporate SF unit called the Icehawks, troops trained in all kinds of nasty stuff *plus* some cut-down Zen.  'Angel Station' was about contact with a biological engineering species and its economic impacts on human technologies, the hero & his sister, the heroine, basically economically conquer space by getting exclusive rights to the alien technology.  Cute stuff, and definitely worth reading for ideas.  <grin><BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:09:43 -0700<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
"Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> PCs come across a STL generation vessel, with several thousand<BR>
> members of some minor race held in Cold Sleep.  Probably no info<BR>
> available to translate the linguistics of the computer records, and<BR>
> everything on board indicates that this is a colony ship of some form<BR>
> or another.<BR>
<BR>
Uh-huh.<BR>
<BR>
<montelbam><BR>
Kiiiiirrrrrrrkkkkkk!!!<BR>
</montelbam><BR>
<BR>
<shatner><BR>
Kaaaaaahhhhhhnnnnnn!!!<BR>
</shatner><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:10:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:06:13 +0100 (MET)<BR>
> From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
> <BR>
> Well, I don't know if this can happen in the USA or anywhere else,<BR>
> but there was a murder here in Norway, were in the criminal case, the<BR>
> kid (who was charged of killing his cousine) was found not quilty, while<BR>
> when the killed girls parents brought him up on civil charges, they<BR>
> were awarded several hundred thousand Norwegian kroner. <BR>
> <BR>
> Not guilty, son, but you still have to pay.<BR>
<BR>
It certainly *can* happen in the USA, and indeed did so rather recently,<BR>
about three miles from where I'm sitting now.  You may have heard of the<BR>
case; it involved a rather well-known former football player, his ex-wife,<BR>
and her waiter friend.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net<BR>
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them<BR>
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:18:57 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Nonhuman languages<BR>
<BR>
Kenji Schwarz writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
The candidates are:<BR>
Droyne (Oynprith):<BR>
Aslan (Trokh):<BR>
Vargr*: this would be my #1 choice<BR>
K'kree:<BR>
Other: Zhodani might be nice, too (yes. I know they're humans)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:19:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nonhuman languages<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The candidates are:<BR>
> Droyne (Oynprith):  1<BR>
> Aslan (Trokh):<BR>
> Vargr*:<BR>
> K'kree:<BR>
> Other:   _____________<BR>
> <BR>
> *As there is no single language for the entire Vargr species (how absurdly<BR>
> improbable!!!!), I'll assume Gvegh, said to be the dominant language in<BR>
> the area behind the Claw.<BR>
> <BR>
I'll put in a vote for Gvegh.<BR>
<BR>
I've a hard time believing that any species other than the Droyne and the<BR>
Vilani would have ONE language.  <BR>
<BR>
IMTU, and in my novels, most intelligent species have several languages.  <BR>
In my Terran Federation one of the biggest conflicts is between the whole<BR>
of the Federation and the mostly Japanese speaking Fringe, especially the<BR>
planet Shiratori which has as part of its constitution that it will NEVER<BR>
again be dependent upon another power for its self defense... the rivalry<BR>
between the Terran Starfleet and the Shiratori Self-Defense Force is quite<BR>
notorious. (Shiratori was one of the first Terran colonies that grew big<BR>
enough to have colonial worlds of its own.  Hiroaki Nomura remarks "I<BR>
sometimes find it hard to believe that all our ancestors came from eight<BR>
little islands on Earth."  To which his wife, Princess Justine<BR>
Wells-Ataniell, replies: "They didn't ALL, you know.")<BR>
<BR>
Also the Khalanghaari, a neighboring humaniti empire, have conflicts<BR>
between speakers of three main language groups:  Khalinghaarin, Selkeren,<BR>
and Kam'zari.<BR>
<BR>
I once ran a Traveller campaign set in this universe.  It was a lot of<BR>
fun.  Hiroaki ended up serving in the Kam'zari House of Ataniell fleet<BR>
after being publicly disavowed by Shougun Rensselaer in order to avert a<BR>
full-scale war between Shiratori and Terra at a strategically inopportune<BR>
time...<BR>
<BR>
Hm... maybe I should try that again.  Would any of you local SF Bay Area<BR>
people play in a heretic TU?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:28:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Joseph Dietrich's Imperium<BR>
<BR>
- --- Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm still a bit captivated over Joseph Dietrich's TU, and would<BR>
> like to set out some ideas for anyone who is also a bit captivated.<BR>
 <BR>
What is this? Does it have a link to his page or is this some kind of <BR>
prited material?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
terry<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:41:15 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
>Then there was the Rodney King beating case a few years back<BR>
>- some Los Angeles, California police officers got a bit too<BR>
>enthusiastic in their apprehending of one Rodney King, who was<BR>
>resisting arrest...and someone got it on videotape.<BR>
<BR>
	That's putting it rather kindly.  At one point in the<BR>
	videotape, Mr. King was down on his hands and knees<BR>
	while several police officers took turns hitting him<BR>
	with their batons.  No doubt, Mr. King is not a model<BR>
	citizen, but it looked pretty clear that the officers<BR>
	were allowing their "enthusiasm" to overcome their<BR>
	professional standards.  Makes you wonder what happens<BR>
	when the cameras are not around.  I would expect that<BR>
	law enforcement officers might get "enthusiastic" on<BR>
	many low law level worlds, if the PCs give them any<BR>
	trouble.<BR>
<BR>
>The officers were acquitted of using excessive force-<BR>
>apparently it wasn't clear to the jury just how much Mr. King<BR>
>was actually resisting, and they could not get to the beyond<BR>
>reasonable doubt stage.<BR>
<BR>
	There are those who argue that there were other<BR>
	considerations.  I cannot say what the jurors where<BR>
	thinking, but it is only fair to point out that the colour<BR>
	of Mr. King's skin may have been a factor.  Just how are<BR>
	off-worlders, let alone aliens, treated on planet?  I<BR>
	expect that backwater systems that are visited rarely, or<BR>
	poor worlds that may resent "rich outsiders," might be<BR>
	downright rude to the average PC.<BR>
<BR>
>Mr. King proceeded to sue, of course (taking the officers to<BR>
>civil court), as expected. What I did not expect was for the<BR>
>United States Federal Government to charge the officers with<BR>
>violating Mr. King's civil rights. It looked like the government<BR>
>had decided that this high-profile, emotionally charged circus<BR>
>of a case needed a guilty verdict for spin purposes, and tried to<BR>
>create a guilty verdict themselves when the courts in California<BR>
>did not do so.<BR>
<BR>
	Would you then completely rule out the possibility that<BR>
	certain human beings in the federal government thought <BR>
	that the officers broke the law?  It might be interesting<BR>
	to have a TU world with competing systems of law, where<BR>
	jurisdictions overlap and the courts go out of their way<BR>
	to embarrass the other courts.  Players caught in the<BR>
	middle might have a bad time ;)<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Legal skill may run a poor second to a high Social<BR>
>Standing score, or other evidence of good governmental<BR>
>connections.<BR>
<BR>
	Not to mention monetary worth or race.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:00:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Lyle Youngblood" <lyley@gte.net><BR>
Subject: IBIS<BR>
<BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:16:18 -0500<BR>
>From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Dragon Magazine Archive<BR>
><BR>
>IBIS = Imperial Bureau of Interstellar Service or something like that.  It<BR>
>was a spy-based classic Traveller service that would make special<BR>
operatives<BR>
>for the Imperium.  During your service you are given anagathics in order to<BR>
>keep you young.  Really cool service variant.<BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I believe it was Imperial Bureau of Internal Security and they were a<BR>
KGB<BR>
riff, both secret police and an espionage service.  IMTU, they exist and I<BR>
use<BR>
them that way.<BR>
                                                            Lyle<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:54:08 -0600<BR>
From: mindbreaker@unforgettable.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>><BR>
Second, I don't recall CT ever specifying how they worked, but they seemed<BR>
to be a single large system onboard a warship, which suggested they<BR>
probably were area dampers.<BR>
>>>><BR>
<BR>
IIRC, it's kind of a hybrid.  Book 4 is actually the best source for tech<BR>
detail on Nuclear Dampers.  It describes a system of two<BR>
variously-spaced-apart generator nodes which propogate overlapping damping<BR>
fields over a scalable area, but then use point defense fire control to<BR>
modulate interference & coincidence of the field waves, and thus focus the<BR>
resulting concentrated effect on specific targets such as fissionable<BR>
masses in enemy warheads, to either surpress or prematurely enhance [!] the<BR>
atomic processes therein.<BR>
<BR>
Note that this is also similar to the described operation of the Ancient's<BR>
hand-held and planet-based disintegrators (described as a 'development' of<BR>
damper tech) in Twilight's Peak...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -Chad<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:10:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Glitches after maintenance<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:01:26 +0200<BR>
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
> <BR>
> > Anyone have any nice glitches I can throw at them during the shakedown?<BR>
> <BR>
> Have one of the major components suffer a fake malfunction. This means<BR>
> that when they run a self-diagnostic program, it gets convinced that<BR>
> there's something wrong with some esoteric part. The characters can<BR>
> check it, "repair" it or even replace it, and the program is still<BR>
> convinced there's something wrong. Finding out the problem with the<BR>
> electronics involved in the self-diagnostics can take time. (Especially<BR>
> when the "malfunction" is on some vital piece of machinery, and it can't<BR>
> be used because of inbuilt safeties.) <BR>
<BR>
This is particularly annoying when the problem with the electronics also<BR>
causes the death of three members of the frozen watch, near-death due to<BR>
vacuum exposure of another crewperson, and a poignant rendition of "Daisy,<BR>
Daisy" during the repair process.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net<BR>
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them<BR>
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:22:22 PST<BR>
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Starship gearheadedness<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
><BR>
>Another question: What are good ballpark figures for warship armor? The<BR>
>Type T spinal mount is the largest NPAWs available to the Imperium<BR>
>historically, and as I have it figured its maximum possible damage is<BR>
>601,200 (and averaging around 350,700). The CA-15 has an armor value of 80<BR>
>(1080 cm hard steel) in MT, which is roughly DR 29,760. The Type T's going<BR>
>to go right through that, but it'll still take several hits to kill the<BR>
>ship (it's got lots of hitpoints). OTOH, according to FSotSI, a BB-15, with<BR>
>an armor value of 120 is going to have a DR of somthing like 6,000,000,<BR>
>which seems unreasonable by an order of magnitude, at least.<BR>
<BR>
From what I understand from 3rd parties, the people who wrote designs for <BR>
Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium didn't pay much attention to the <BR>
rules; therefore, some (many?) of the designs are badly flawed.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, I have absolutely no intention of using (and hence, designing)any <BR>
warships greater than 10,000 dtons, so a lot of this discussion doesn't mean <BR>
much for my campaign.<BR>
<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 14:30:03 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
At 09:34 PM 11/4/99 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > courtroom to determine the truth.  As long as the globe showed red,<BR>
> > you were telling the truth *as you knew it*.  The instant it started<BR>
> > turning blue, you were in deep kimchee...<BR>
><BR>
>Yeahg, part of every use included asking a set of test questions,<BR>
>including some that you were supposed to lie in answer to.<BR>
><BR>
>If they globe *didn't* turn red during the lies, you were a pathological<BR>
>liar and the veridicator couldn't be used on you. But such folks are a<BR>
>minority. They also tend to be rather careless, so getting other<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of a book I read long ago... The radical conservationists<BR>
were trying to stop the megacorporations from damaging the environment<BR>
any more, and this ad copy writer got caught in the middle of it.<BR>
Apparently, despite the fact of a VERY high law level, some bloke<BR>
discovered that there were people who would commit crimes because they<BR>
_enjoy_ being beaten. He would get someone to commit a murder, and the<BR>
police would beat him to death upon capture, and he would laugh the whole<BR>
time.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Build giant starship fleets and fight monumental naval<BR>
battles with Trillion Credit Squadrons.<BR>
Rob Brady                              robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:38:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 06:26:38 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> <BR>
> And I'm sure that as (I am told) many mosques have a plaque or other<BR>
> indicator indicating the direction of of Mecca now, offworld mosques<BR>
> might well have some sort of indicator controlled by a computer. <BR>
> <BR>
> For personal use, something incorporating a gps type system might work.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, since praying "toward" Mecca even on Earth involves praying<BR>
along the great circle leading there (you don't stand on your head if<BR>
you're 170 degrees away, in other words), one would probably see the same<BR>
sort of practical correction applied here.  You'd aim for the point on the<BR>
horizon directly above or below the current location of Sol in the sky.<BR>
<BR>
A complication here is that mosques are often built (on Terra) so that<BR>
their orientation naturally focuses on the direction of Mecca.  The Saudi<BR>
embassy in Washington DC is a lovely example; it has a sort of outer<BR>
curtain wall which is aligned with the street and adjoining lots, but the<BR>
building inside (which includes a mosque) is rotated about 30 degrees so<BR>
that the front doors are pointed at Mecca.  Makes for a rather striking<BR>
effect.<BR>
<BR>
Needless to say, this couldn't be done if the direction to Mecca changed<BR>
on a daily cycle.  This alone might lead to most 'mainstream' Muslims<BR>
accepting a compromise in which some on-planet location -- first landing<BR>
point, first mosque constructed, location of a shard of the Kaaba -- is<BR>
taken as "local Mecca" for prayer purposes.  Of course, there would be<BR>
ultra-orthodox Muslims who insist on praying toward Mecca itself.  They<BR>
would thus do the five daily prayers in five directions, spinning through<BR>
a circle each day.  I might imagine their picking up the nickname<BR>
"Dervishes" for this.<BR>
<BR>
It may not be long (on historical timescales) before real-world Moslems<BR>
need to face part of this issue.  On the Moon, the direction to Mecca from<BR>
any point on the surface is fixed (plus or minus about three degrees,<BR>
which is fairly neglibile.  However, the daily cycle of prayer would pose<BR>
a problem.  Do you pray five times over the lunar day, or the terran?  If<BR>
the latter, do you do it by Mecca time, or GMT, or whatever time is being<BR>
kept in the base?  With the latter two, how do you decide what latitude's<BR>
sunrise and sunset to use?<BR>
<BR>
> I do agree that the direction would too little to worry about when<BR>
> taking even a jump 6 in the Marches. I was being a bit disingenious<BR>
> with regard to prayers in jump, knowing that some scholars will nitpick<BR>
> doctrines to death, and it might be argued that one couldn't know the<BR>
> right direction while in jump.<BR>
<BR>
I would imagine that there would arise a fatwah for this, like "toward the<BR>
bow".  Again, there would be dissenters.<BR>
<BR>
> Think there's a chance that for those places, they'd go by the<BR>
> calculated time of the new moon?<BR>
<BR>
Some Moslem countries use a calculated new moon standard today.  In fact,<BR>
one of the elements of the BCCI banking scandal a few years back involved<BR>
a scheme that went awry because of differences on this issue.  I don't<BR>
remember the specific countries involved, but both were to end a banking<BR>
holiday at hilal, the next sighting of the new moon.  Country A used<BR>
calculation, and ended the holiday on the predicted date.  Country B used<BR>
observation, and its official observers failed to spot the moon and<BR>
extended the holiday one day.  As a result, a key transaction failed to go<BR>
through between the two countries, causing a ripple of unmade payments<BR>
which led to exposure of (that part of) BCCI's machinations.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav should be clear... :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net<BR>
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them<BR>
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:39:54 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Whose Imperium??? (was Re: Joseph Dietrich's Imperium)<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm still a bit captivated over Joseph Dietrich's TU, and would<BR>
>> like to set out some ideas for anyone who is also a bit captivated.<BR>
><BR>
>What is this? Does it have a link to his page or is this some kind of<BR>
>prited material?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
No, actually it's just a developing idea that me and Robert have discussed.<BR>
I'm trying to develop my next Traveller game, and I've asked a couple of<BR>
questions to the list (the fuel-less jump drive thread having garnered the<BR>
most responses). Roberts been very helpful to me in generating ideas on the<BR>
setting at large.<BR>
<BR>
In brief, it's space opera/science fantasy pure and simple, with a huge<BR>
dose of Fading Suns-style neogothicisim, using the Imperium as a backdrop.<BR>
Originally it was going to be set in the Rebellion era, but it's starting<BR>
to develop into a post-rebellion, post-hard times setting.<BR>
<BR>
As part of the flavor, I wanted jump drives that didn't use huge amounts of<BR>
jump fuel. I also am going to have a lot of Ancient relics laying about,<BR>
including some huge jump gates that allow transit from certain strategic<BR>
sytems to others.<BR>
<BR>
Other elements include a lot of ignorance of technology, a religious<BR>
revival in the form of a Universal Church, psionics,<BR>
things-man-was-not-meant-to-know, secret societies, and other phenomena<BR>
strange and mysterious.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking about calling the setting _Dark Imperium_ or some such thing.<BR>
<BR>
The only stuff I have up on a webpage that's Traveller-related are some<BR>
things that I did for my *last* game, which was also space opera, but with<BR>
a Star Wars flavor (and using the SW-RPG rules). Alas, it was all hand<BR>
written, so transcribing it to the 'Net has been a pain. So far, the only<BR>
stuff up is a lot of statistics (some vehicles, weapons and armor, sensor<BR>
rules) -- MT stuff converted to SW-RPG terms.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is interested, it's at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.evansville.net/~yikes/joespace.html<BR>
<BR>
There be some FUDGE material there too, as well as a very small amount of<BR>
other stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and if you don't know about Fading Suns, check out:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.holistic-design.com/FS/FSmain.htm<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:45:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
Rob Brady wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> This reminds me of a book I read long ago... The radical conservationists<BR>
> were trying to stop the megacorporations from damaging the environment<BR>
> any more, and this ad copy writer got caught in the middle of it.<BR>
> Apparently, despite the fact of a VERY high law level, some bloke<BR>
> discovered that there were people who would commit crimes because they<BR>
> _enjoy_ being beaten. He would get someone to commit a murder, and the<BR>
> police would beat him to death upon capture, and he would laugh the whole<BR>
> time.<BR>
<BR>
_The Space Merchants_, by Frederik Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth.  IMHO, it's<BR>
much better than the sequel, _The Merchants' War_.<BR>
<BR>
Either can be used as an idea-mine for a dystopic Government Type 1<BR>
(company/corporation) society.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:43:15 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Justice and Civil vs Criminal (OT-ish and Longish)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
>Then there was the Rodney King beating case a few years back<BR>
>- some Los Angeles, California police officers got a bit too<BR>
>enthusiastic in their apprehending of one Rodney King, who was<BR>
>resisting arrest...and someone got it on videotape.<BR>
<BR>
	That's putting it rather kindly.  <snip> <BR>
           No doubt, Mr. King is not a model<BR>
	citizen, but it looked pretty clear that the officers<BR>
	were allowing their "enthusiasm" to overcome their<BR>
	professional standards.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
One take on the situation: the recent widespread availability<BR>
of personal video cameras may have brought to light what the<BR>
professional standards at the LAPD were at the time, and they<BR>
were most shockingly *not* what was usually shown on the <BR>
cop dramas.<BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
  Makes you wonder what happens<BR>
	when the cameras are not around.  I would expect that<BR>
	law enforcement officers might get "enthusiastic" on<BR>
	many low law level worlds, if the PCs give them any<BR>
	trouble.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
I think it was a given in the King situation that the officers did not<BR>
know they were being taped. A valid point, though.<BR>
<BR>
(Aside: I have never been a police officer. I do not know what conditions<BR>
or contributers there were to the Rodney King incident, nor do I know<BR>
exactly what actions the officers did that *were* in violation of department<BR>
policy and/or the law, if any. I was, of course, shocked by the video,<BR>
as the tv news show intended me to be, but my being shocked by the<BR>
actions of police officers does not, in and of itself, provide proof of<BR>
wrongdoing by said police officers.)<BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
	of Mr. King's skin may have been a factor.  Just how are<BR>
	off-worlders, let alone aliens, treated on planet?  I<BR>
	expect that backwater systems that are visited rarely, or<BR>
	poor worlds that may resent "rich outsiders," might be<BR>
	downright rude to the average PC.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Aliens will be treated on backwater planets anywhere along the spectrum <BR>
from "Alien Gods Come to Show Us the One True Way" to "Alien Monsters<BR>
Come to Eat Our Children and Rape Our Women". As opposed to heavily<BR>
visited planets, where aliens will range along the spectrum from<BR>
"Cheaper to replace than robots" to "Welcome to our lovely planet,<BR>
how much money did you bring?".<BR>
<BR>
Off-worlders may get similar treatment, even if human.<BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
	Would you then completely rule out the possibility that<BR>
	certain human beings in the federal government thought <BR>
	that the officers broke the law?  <BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
</rant/><BR>
In our legal system, it should not ever be what a government official<BR>
*thinks* - it should always be what he can, in the spirit and the letter<BR>
of the law, *prove*.<BR>
<BR>
The appearance was of multiple attempts to "get" the officers, <BR>
a semblance of legal maneuvering to avoid the protections against<BR>
double jeapardy. The Feds did not push for an appeal, therefore they<BR>
must have seen no *legal* grounds for overturning the court's decision.<BR>
In absence of such grounds, they attempted to trump the decision<BR>
instead with the somewhat nebulous civil rights charges.<BR>
<BR>
If the feds had gone after the California court system, that would<BR>
have been one thing - but no process of that sort came of the affair.<BR>
Evidently, the feds do not think the California court system is broken<BR>
*unless* it suits their purposes to disagree with a particular verdict - and <BR>
they then acted (via the civil rights charges) to trump the decision of said <BR>
court with respect to that verdict only. <BR>
</rant off/><BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
            It might be interesting<BR>
	to have a TU world with competing systems of law, where<BR>
	jurisdictions overlap and the courts go out of their way<BR>
	to embarrass the other courts.  Players caught in the<BR>
	middle might have a bad time ;)<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Being the scrap a bunch of big dogs are fighting over is always <BR>
mightly tough on the scrap. Of course, canny players may find<BR>
themselves in situations where they can play their tormentors<BR>
off against each other, or make seperate deals with one for<BR>
protection from the others - much like a drug dealer may become<BR>
an informant for the drug control agency, and in return get some<BR>
slack from the normal enforcement arms.<BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
>ObTrav: Legal skill may run a poor second to a high Social<BR>
>Standing score, or other evidence of good governmental<BR>
>connections.<BR>
<BR>
	Not to mention monetary worth or race.<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Either of which, in most situations, will be directly represented <BR>
by a Traveller social standing. Money, or course, is the simplest<BR>
way (through spending) for a character to raise social standing.<BR>
Most character generation systems have allowances to modify social <BR>
standing by the race of the character involved - for example, the Vargr <BR>
Charisma system, or the Zhodani mageocracy system.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I know that wasn't the "race" you were talking about.<BR>
<BR>
This has some danger of getting seriously out of hand - some people<BR>
thought the Rodney King verdict important enough to perform assault,<BR>
arson and rioting over. I'd rather not bring that kind of devastation to<BR>
the TML, so I'd like to move this to private email as soon as others<BR>
think appropriate, if others would like to continue this at all.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1315<BR>
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